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  • 37

Small jet slides off runway at KSGR

Soumis
 
Reports of an Embraer jets slides off the runway at Sugarland Regional Airport. No reported injuries. (www.click2houston.com) Plus d'info...

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bovineone
Jeff Lawson 5
Photo of the aircraft sitting in the ditch... https://twitter.com/jjobeskhou/status/535854086893993984/photo/1
bovineone
Jeff Lawson 4
Flight track for an Embraer at that time -- http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N584JS/history/20141121/1500Z/KHOU/KSGR

More summary details -- http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20141121-0
LITTLEBIRD912
LITTLEBIRD912 3
So I just did a runway analysis using APG. APG is an industry leading runway performance calculator. Operators spend lots of money per year per tail number to pay for runway takeoff distance required, climb performance calculations, landing distance, missed approach/balked landing performance, and can add things like wet runway and snow criteria etc. Now I am not supporting landing w an 8kt (9mph) tailwind. But let's ignore that for a minute. I took the data from the SGR ASOS at 0953 that day. SE@9mph 30.15 and temp of 19°C. I selected 130@8 and a wet runway and set the altimeter. And kept all criteria the same for RW17 and for RW35. The APG analyst data showed the same exact number that the aircraft could weigh for landing for each runway. But... The landing distance necessary for a full stop on RW35 was 3811' and for RW17 was 3290'; of course it's the tailwind causing the difference. Now I'll remind you, those numbers already have wet runway criteria in them. Both those numbers are more or less close to half the distance available for landing. Something else caused this overrun IMO wasn't just the tailwind. Every accident or incident has a chain. There was a chain for this as well IMO. Could've even started in Houston hobby who knows. Some things that may have contributed to this were many different things, things like: Mechanical anomaly with brake system, not coming in stabilized, or fast, or floated, or something, a pilot technique not supported by company procedures, or their time in type. The note someone discovered about the runway not being grooved is a significant factor IMO. I hope the final ntsb report has a clear cause so other operators can learn from it.
sriklin
Seth Riklin 3
Bad decision to land with a 17 knot tailwind on a wet runway.
THelm
Timothy Helm 2
Is there a different article that says 17kts? The artice on ASN says the METAR was 130@8 just after the accident, which would be just over a 6kt tailwind component using runway 35. Just curious, because 6 kts puts them well within the aircraft tailwind limitation while 17kts would be well over.
bentwing60
bentwing60 1
I looked up the historic sequences on Intellicast for the Houston area. After 10:00 AM at least 10 gusting into the 20's the rest of the morning. Intellicast reports in MPH.
bovineone
Jeff Lawson 2
The choice to use runway 35 might have been preferred even though there was a tailwind because an ILS approach is only available in that direction. They really should have an ILS for runway 17, which is generally the direction of prevailing winds in the area.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 3
Seriously? What idiot lays out an ILS with no southern flow for an airport along the gulf coast?!?!

I've never gone into SGR under IFR and only once while VFR so I had no clue. My preferred airport anywhere on the west side is Houston Executive.

I see the GPS 17 has a 400' minimum. It looks like they need to knock down some towers and drop that LPV mins to 200.
LITTLEBIRD912
LITTLEBIRD912 1
It was from the SE at 9mph per NOAA.gov.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Never a good idea. Please post link that you got this from as it is not in story
edgeair
edgeair 1
I laned a C152 with a 4kt tailwind once, that was plenty of tailwind. 17kts what was the pilot thinking, especially in a plane that is as fast as that.
bentwing60
bentwing60 3
Judgment, the trickiest part of the whole equation.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 4
Sadly, button pushers are what they have become... Stick and rudder's on it's way out...
bentwing60
bentwing60 5
It's kinda sad to see the fear in their eyes when then A.P. disconnect alarm sounds. Used to be in the sim., if you leaned on the A.P., they failed it. Nowdays, if you don't use it, they fail you. Automation, it's all about the automation. Someone send me an engineer, I don't need a G.D. airplane, I need an engineer!

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 11
Dear friend , mocktfc, I am no aviator. But having a difference of opinion is one thing and getting filthy in expressing it is another. And this clearly speaks of the person's grooming. I guess you ought to know that most of the time generally those people opine who have vast knowledge as well as experience in flying, tens of thousand of hours acquired over many many decades. They all deserve some respect and politeness during dialogue.
This is my opinion. You are entitled to hold yours including the one that may be totally contrary to what I have stated.
Happy blogging on FA and elsewhere.
preacher1
preacher1 9
Why is he or bentwing60 an idiot for speaking the truth. They are not the only ones that feel that way. Automation is fine but it is only for repetitive mundane tasks on a long flight. You will get paid to fly and you had best know how!!!!!!!!!!!! Folks in the back end won't give a damn about an engine out or wx. That's your job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IMHO
btweston
btweston -8
What truth? What do you know?
preacher1
preacher1 5
Opinions are just that, feelings formed by what we see, and what we see is stated above. Just because somebody doesn't agree with it doesn't mean I am automatically give it up. There are some good pilots over there but there are some looking for a paycheck, hoping they never come up on anything bad, but if they fly long enough, they will wind up scattered over a runway like you have gathered up on in times past.
usad
usad 4
I stand with Preacher. Automation is a great tool, but worthless when the rubber meets the road. It's those basic, continually honed flying skills that will save you at the end of the day.

You have your right to disagree and we have the right to callaspse your ranting with the Thumbs Down button! :-)
BaronG58
BaronG58 4
Thrustt and Preacher I feel are referring to button pushers and dependence on automation vs. ability to hand fly plane in today's world and respond to critical situations...I don't think their comments were exclusive to this incident. Go ahead and rag on me because I agree with them.
bentwing60
bentwing60 -2
I seem to have struck a chord. Maybe you are an engineer. My Dad was an engineer. After a couple of years of observing my dad, I decided to be a pilot. I sure didn't want to be an engineer. Once one of my teachers told me if I kept sitting there staring out the window and not paying attention I would wind up an uneducated idiot. Now I sit in my jet at FL 410, staring out the window and thinking about my next career. I think I'll be a weather man, as I'd like to experience being wrong half the time and still be paid! Then you'll be right, or not. That is all.
LITTLEBIRD912
LITTLEBIRD912 2
Your point? That your awesome?
bentwing60
bentwing60 -1
Nope, just part of the fabric, right sometimes and wrong others. My inclination is not normally to shoot the messenger. I calls em like I sees em, and on a broad forum, all will not agree. So fire away, because when I occasionally mention that I fly jets for a living, it might not be bragging, it might be because that is just what I do. A little humility benefits all. It used to be called politics. Now it is taken as a sign of weakness!
hiflier32
ric lang 2
You people have it all wrong! I've said it before & I'll say it again. I will NEVER ride an RJ again because of the Clearasil fumes coming from the flight deck not only make me sick, but probably affect the "pilots" mental capability as well.
preacher1
preacher1 3
Ric: are you sure you are on the right post? You aren't on this thread anywhere and your comment has no bearing on anything here??
btweston
btweston -1
Zzzzzz... Thanks, dad.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
All these years, I didn't know you two were related!!!
preacher1
preacher1 1
The line goes up to your name. LOL
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
Is that how it works??? I thought the response is to the post that's a tab over...
LITTLEBIRD912
LITTLEBIRD912 2
Update. From NTSB factual preliminary report...

According to the crewmembers, the purpose of the flight was to reposition the airplane from HOU to SGR. After departing HOU the flight received vectors from air traffic control, who also told the pilots to expect the ILS 35 approach at SGR. The first officer reported that the SGR tower controller cleared the flight to land and that there was no standing water on the runway. During the approach, the first officer noted that there was a tailwind of 15 knots that decreased to 9 knots on touch down.

After landing, the captain, who was flying the airplane, applied the brakes which were unresponsive. She then pulled the emergency brakes twice, but the airplane continued past the end of the runway and onto a grassy area. The airplane then crossed a service road and came to rest in a drainage ditch. The airplane's empennage section was partially submerged by water and the airplane faced the opposite direction of travel.
mtmurat
Martin Murat 1
I'll not speculate as to the pilots actions, but if you Google "phenom brake problems" you will see that that the 100 model has a history of overruns and issues related to the 'brake by wire' braking system......
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
Those slippery runways...
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Experimenting to land in power saving mode ! Didn't work out. eh ?
BaronG58
BaronG58 1
AOPA had a article I believe it was last month and it addressed the braking problems of the early Phenom 100's. Pilots complained the brake by wire system was too aggressive (grabby). Article cited incidents of overruns. Vref has to be spot-on. High and hot not a good combination for this aircraft. Not a good combination for any plane but especially this one. Lacking thrust reverser controlling speed and brakes is all you got. This braking problem was well known and not to be used as an excuse in my opinion. Embraer has addressed this in the Phenom 100E (enhanced) with spoilers and few other tweaks. Not sure what happened here but something tells me a go around (hey! lets try this again) would not have been a bad idea.
preacher1
preacher1 1
I'm still wondering where that 17kt tailwind came from. I can't find it anywhere
eater1952
Kent Thompson 2
It came out of the south.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
Winds along the gulf are predominantly out of the south. Most every airport I've been to has a preferred southern flow. That was common when I was teaching in Conroe, about seventy nm off the coast.

An issue I had there was Indian students at a little ticket mill who were not taught preferred flows nor the issue of winds along the gulf. One early morning I'm taxiing with a student to 19 when some idiot announces he's taking the runway at 1. I gave a quick primer on preferred flows and winds. He was either solo or had an instructor just as ignorant.

Even as far north as we are in Austin, it's a southern flow probably 95% of the time. There have been a few times I wanted to get in from the south and landed with a 3-5 kt tailwind and once with about 8 kts. That might have been my only time I tried to turn a Skyhawk into a rock. A 9,000' runway comes in handy!
BaronG58
BaronG58 1
Not sure what time of day this happened but Intellicast reported the high winds of the day were at 12:53pm SSE 16mph....1:03pm SSE 22mph..balance of the day single digits.
LITTLEBIRD912
LITTLEBIRD912 1
According to http://flightaware.com/live/flight/RSP526/history/20141121/1500Z/KHOU/KSGR the plane was on approach at 1009a. So your applicable weather would be at 0953.
LITTLEBIRD912
LITTLEBIRD912 1
This reading comes directly from the ASOS station on the KSGR field. Take note of the time the accident happened. Then find the time in this link. And there you have it. Not sure why someone is taking winds from intellicast which is miles from SGR. http://w1.weather.gov/data/obhistory/KSGR.html
LITTLEBIRD912
LITTLEBIRD912 1
21st. 09:53am. Wind SE@9mph. 1.00sm vis. Heavy Rain Fog/Mist. FEW007 BKN025 OVC044. 66F TP/64F DP. 93%Humidity. 30.15 1021.1
BaronG58
BaronG58 2
Good info.
BDLGUY
John Perrotta 1
Ouch! Will it be written off or repaired?
BaronG58
BaronG58 2
My guess...written off...parted-out
LITTLEBIRD912
LITTLEBIRD912 2
I've seen a worse condition E50P after a braking incident and it's getting a new wing and will return to flight status. I wouldn't be so quick to judge it would be a write off.
preacher1
preacher1 1
And 51 comments and all this wx speculation later, per the NTSB, the pilot said the brakes failed. Not an uncommon happening on that aircraft.
LITTLEBIRD912
LITTLEBIRD912 1
You can be hydro planing and have the feeling of "failed brakes".
preacher1
preacher1 1
Captain said unresponsive brakes and no standing water. It's football time. I'm outa here. WPS
Viperguy46
Jesse Carroll 1
What, no drone chute?
LITTLEBIRD912
LITTLEBIRD912 1
Edit. Correction. Not halfway down the runway. RW17 available is 7620. RW35 is 6016. I was looking at the SGR AFD runway which said 8000x100.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Still yet, as you said, there appears to be another problem of some type that came into play here.

[This poster has been suspended.]

preacher1
preacher1 3
Agreed it is not a chat room, although it kinda is when we go to talking and speculating on things. Whether the other will work or not, idk
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 2
As I often admit and declare about my low level of aviation knowledge, but any effort to filter may have its own problems for the regulators. Self restraint is the best restraint. Where is the difficulty to write in this faceless forum like you write or behave in every day life ? None , to my view. Every contributor here , without exception, is a very dignified and highly skilled person. So the language used by that person must reflect this.
So I hope and urge.

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