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  • -14

Malaysian Prime Minister: Flight 370 Ended in Southern Indian Ocean - Airline Tells Relatives There Were No Survivors

Soumis
 
As the search for the wreckage of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 continued late Monday, the country’s prime minister, Najib Razak, said Monday the missing Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 flew along the southern corridor and that its last known location was in the southern Indian Ocean west of Perth. The airline told relatives of survivors that the plane is “lost” and that there were no survivors. The flight “ended” in the Southern Corridor, the prime minister said, referencing data from Inmarsat… (www.frequentbusinesstraveler.com) Plus d'info...

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chase9
david fritch 14
Sorry but this PM and his government lack credibility regarding this whole incident. Give me physical proof or black box then I'm a believer.
ungibbed
Brian Corey 0
I completely agree. There has to be some wreckage from the aircraft. A seat cushion isn't going to cut it. Part of the fuselage or anything that could be part of a Boeing triple seven. It's bound to be found but the FDR transponder radio will have been long dead. If it ever is recovered by some stroke of luck I hope the contents have survived.

I hope for some solid proof or the only logical answer was the aircraft being beamed away by aliens. 99% of which is highly unlikely.
RECOR10
RECOR10 -2
I do not get how more attention is not being paid to the 20 engineers who were on the plane. They certainly would be of value for some killer slave labor in China or Iran. Plenty of time to get them off the plane, put them to work and even put the plane into the drink. I have a suspicion that the plane will be found just days after the black box goes kaput...anyone seen my tin foil hat?
yr2012
matt jensen 1
See my comments down below. No bodies, no crime.
preacher1
preacher1 5
The one thing that must be considered here is that if by chance there were survivors, after 17 days of bungling and face saving, their chances have been severely reduced.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 2
What kind of food and water and/or survivalist gear (eg. solar water purifier, fishing gear) is included with the life rafts?

Even if passagers had survived the impact, they couldn't survive in the middle of the ocean without clean water and food. Because of incompetence (eg. desire to save face) hours or days until rescue, will become weeks at best, or worse months or years.
lolia
lolia 3
Not believing anything until they pull up confirmed pieces of the aircraft.
winga34
This is like 9/11 all over again with all of these conspiracy theories. The plane crashed people, use some common sense. There's no way that a 772 is just sitting somewhere undetected with over 200 people sitting there as hostages.
yr2012
matt jensen 1
Up until Snowden spilled the beans, the world wasn't sure the alphabet soup agencies were spying on them, their cell calls, internet usage. So, it's entirely possible the jet is on the ground. Remember the pilot had programmed five different landing sites into his home computer - that included Diego Garcia.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
People knew. Had come up in Congressional hearing and was covered in the newspapers.

But most people just weren't paying attention.

All that's changed is the release of classified documents that proves that the espionage was happening.
davews
The plane crashed? Hostages sitting in an airplane? If it landed somewhere, what makes you think anyone would just hang around on a plane with hostages for any length of time? This is unprecedented and we just do not know at this point.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
If enough planning went into it and given the nations in this world that hate us... I have no doubt it could be accomplished.

As for the people, they would likely be killed. Only their bodies are useful and necessary when it's all done.
davews
What does the missing plane have to do with us? It was a Malaysian jet. Nobody really hated them until the PM started playing damage control.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 0
Apparently, security is fairly lax there. The plane could be used as a weapon against anyone and has the endurance to get to most desired targets.
magicelle78
Ella Talbott 0
Hate you because you are war mongers, but that's not the issue here.

9/11 was more likely an inside job than not. So your comment is moot.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 0
Another conspiracy fruitcake pops out of the box.

Are you so stupid to believe several hundred or even thousands could be kept quiet to carry out such an act on 9/11? Unreal!
magicelle78
Ella Talbott 1
Just because we don't believe the US government doesn't make us stupid. In fact, the US Government are such bullshit artists and complete and utter liars that you are actually a fruitcake for believing them. I've read far and wide on the matter of 9/11 and to be honest there are 2 stand out stories, I just don't believe the Governments version.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
I hesitate to ask, but which 2 stories stand out? All conspiracies are 'inside jobs' in that they are kept within the confines of the conspirators. But all of this is getting away from the squawk's subject which appears to be the extent of confabulation on the part of the Malaysian government.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
So, how many people are involved in this government conspiracy to conduct the 9/11 attacks? How many hundreds or thousands?

And, what would they do to anyone who started leaking stories?
ricko1
Rick Beekman 2
Notice how the Malaysian government dismissed all reference to the two Iranians with the stolen passports who boarded the aircraft?

Surprised Some of their Family were not on board the Titanic in 1912, to announce No Icebergs were in the area.
clbrunet06
Claude Brunet 2
Hox can we be sure of MH370 crash , unless we have floating pieces in hands ,
sgbelverta
sharon bias 2
It's not that we didn't expect a bad ending. It's the length of time it took to reach the conclusion that is troubling. If they had been searching in the Indian Ocean after 7 days rather than 12 days, we might have found more debris, gotten ships to the better location, etc. With winter storms coming, and the location of possible impact, it's going to be a bear to find anything of size. The ocean currents there are amazingly strong. I hate to bring this up, but the Asian cultural phenomena of "saving face" may have gotten in the way of sharing data. I don't know anyone who likes to admit they need help, but if you can't solve a critical problem in a reasonable amount of time, you need to ask for help. The Chinese and American's have admitted to using satellites in the search, but there are dozen's of nations and private companies who have satellites. Were they asked to look? Was a general maritime request sent out to look for debris in that part of the ocean? It's just irritating that all the information we now know took so long to be found, analized, and forwarded to the correct authorities.
preacher1
preacher1 2
That "saving face" and pecking order of politics has definitely gotten in the way, but that is the difference in an open society as we have and a closed one as most of those are. It has been that way forever and probably won't change in our lifetime.
Derg
Roland Dent 1
Disagree Wayne. Internet access has changed commumications for ordinary people. I you can read English language those of us are connected at light speed. Those of us who grew up close to the old communist bloc are very much aware of the world of secret services. The worrying thing for the USA is just how much surveillance of ordinary people goes on. From the age of eight I was made aware of "stuff that goes on". To this day "stuff" still goes on. Some openly visable and some carefully hidden.
allench1
allench1 2
I will believe the prime ministers account once actual evidence has been found and verified by Boeing. The airlines/government has much too lose if the pilots are found to have been complicit in the crash or in hiding said aircraft.I go back to the last transmission after a turn away from their flight plan.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish -1
Last data transmission and last radio contact with ATC precede the turn.

There were reports that the turn had been broadcast in advance in that last data transmission. But that report has been denied vehemently by the airline, saying that such reports are not reflected in the data at all.

See the CNN story listed in another post in this thread, for more details and analysis.
scbama
Ken Land 1
I would not believe any thing CNN reports, they can not be trusted!
mprnlc
Who knows what to believe anymore. I just hope and pray that tangible evidence is found so that the families and friends of the lost have some closure.
guymed03
Guy Medlock 1
No disrespect intended but have you ever seen any group that were more demonstrative in grief than Asians? I remember when the North Korean Pres Kim died fairly recently and they rolled on the ground for days. I do feel sorry for them, particularly when there is no real confirmation. Such is the custom and culture I guess.
SWEATINTHSWAMP
SWEATINTHSWAMP 1
It was a huge PR mistake for MH Air to inform them in a large group. The meetings should have been with individuals as the "if you vomit I will vomit" physco takes affect.
narit01
Ian Narita 1
What happens when the flight director or auto pilot reaches its the last programmed waypoint?
Will the aircraft continue on its last heading and maintain the last altitude setting? Or will it disconnect and expect the pilot to fly the aircraft?

Thx IGN
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
Most will revert to roll mode where it maintains the current heading and level altitude until fuel is exhausted. When power is lost and the aircraft begins to drop, it will pitch up eventually to the point of a stall.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
New thought...How plausible would it be that some one (hijacker) stowed away in the rest area?
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
No need to involve airport security and airport employees, when any one of 239 people who walked on to the plane could be an hijacker on the onside.

Apart from some behavioral analysis done by trained observers, these look like any other passenger on the outside. Especially when they're not even checking passports against the list of known stolen credentials.

Without biometrics, it's hard to be certain the passport belongs to the passenger carrying it.
13Defender
13Defender 1
I feel badly for the families of the passengers who have to sift through all the rampant speculation by the news and different government bureaucrats for some glimmer of hope. They are the collateral damage in this war of disinformation.
preacher1
preacher1 1
All this talk about how the plane landed, whether soft or hard. Best I remember, AF447 went into pieces, hence there were bodies. Either they haven't found the right debris field or the fuselage didn't break up, thereby holding in the bodies. Just an idle thought for a Saturday morning.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
...and in the last day or so, they found another field in which to look for hay stacks....
preacher1
preacher1 1
Yep, and now they have recovered something but it has not been released as whether it's parts of the plane or ocean junk.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
They've been recovering ocean junk for weeks. Until any recovered debris is verified to be part of the missing plane, all recovered debris is ocean junk.

Still waiting for a verification.
preacher1
preacher1 1
I don't think they have been recovering; they have been satellite spotting but no recovery. This morning, after moving into the new search area, they have physically spotted and recovered something. I think inbound to Pert as we speak but no ID to media yet.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
There have been si many pieces of debris and so many different ships searching, so there are been manh encounters. Each one has been different.

1. Sometimes they could tell just by looking that the debris was not related yo the missing plane and left the junk floating in the ocean.

2. Sometimes they could tell it likely wasn't related to MH370, but removed the foisting junk from the ocean.

3. Other times they couldn't immediately tell if the ocean debris was related to the missing plane and removed it for further inspection.

4. Upon inspecting such removed debris, sometimes they would immediately throw it back in.

5. Other times, they likely brought some debts back to sure for either further inspection or removal from ocean.

---

The only thing that keeps changing is the location of such searches and debris removal. But the search and response to debris has not likely changed substantially throughout.

When they verify MH370 debris, or even aviation related debris, that will be significant. They may not even make that news public until they have a chance to bring the debris back to shore to more thoroughly verify its' connection to MH370.
preacher1
preacher1 1
I think that's where they are at right now with this they got from the new area. It looked like a duck, so now they got to bring it to shore so they can officially say it's a duck. Unless they work late, because of the time lag and distance to Perth, we may not know until Monday or later.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
They may have finally found actual debris from the plane (yet one more time), and we may hear about it tmrw or next week.

But it's all that crying wolf that has made skeptics of many of us. At this point, I'll believe it when I see it.
preacher1
preacher1 1
To boot, everybody says that Malaysia is the sovereign country in this deal, but each country wants to show their expertise a bit and would just like for everybody to get out of the way and let them do it, notably the U.S. and the Aussies and/or UK, and I still yet think that Malaysia is hiding something here and just wishing everybody would go away and let the plane and bodies lie on the floor
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
Now, that's a conspiracy I could believe in!
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
That sounds about right.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Well since we're doing Sat am speculating: if the pane were to land softly enough to not break up, and passengers hadn't been intentionally killed earlier in flight, there would've been passengers alive to escape on life rafts with ELTs before the plane finally sunk into the water. The US Airways plane landing on the Hudson shows that an intact plane will take a while to sink.

But landing carefully and softly doesn't seem to fit very well with flying into a far deep corner of the world, with deep rough waters.
Gurica
Gustavo Rios 1
OK fellows now we can stsrt to make predictions about what could happen on 370 flight. due that the search of the wreckage found in that site we can assume that the plane or the rest of him is in the bottom of the ocean RIP
peterryan300
Peter Ryan 1
Apart from everything else, this makes the aviation industry look very foolish.
The bottom line is that in some situations there is not sufficient knowledge of where planes and people are.
Major changes ahead...
NawazMirza
Nawaz Mirza 1
Thanks Roland, you are a true gentleman, hats off to you(though i don't wear one).
Derg
Roland Dent 2
There are plenty like me Nawaz..plenty. The USAF is having a hard time keeping pilots because they have them doing stuff that they don't see the need for and the rest of the alerts are for targets that are way beyond the technology that is in the public domain. Plenty of people agree with me..most of them cannot say a word.
ungibbed
Brian Corey 1
Yet more speculation based off previous issues with the 777 series which did have an issue with fire caused by the batteries behind the cockpit door. Most all were grounded IIRC until a fix was made. Even then if the plane is falling at terminal velocity towards the drink, there's bound to be wreckage even in a semi controlled landing of a plane with a dead radio. The front landing gear and it's tire catching fire seems plausible, but still in a compartment away from the still operational avionics just doesn't to me.

I like Wired but explaining it all away via technology isn't going to defeat the laws of physics. A plane that large is bound to break apart upon impact with the water. What goes up must come down with or without a working transponder signal.
4StarChiTownLimo
Keith Dart 1
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
The major question of this theory is how the plane got turned in a SSW heading. If the plane was in an emergency needing to land as soon as possible, why did it continue to fly for hours and how did it turn later in away from land.

The second question is that the plane was heading away from all airports and all land, to allegedly fall into the water in a remote part of the world, far from land, into deep ocean waters, with strong seas, and strong currents that chaotically go in many varied directions.

The plane ended up in the deepest and most chaotic waters available within this flight's range of Kuala Lumpur. So that coincidence is the second doubt in the theory.
ungibbed
Brian Corey 1
I need to see wreckage to believe any of these "official" reports with unofficial facts or reliable sources other than a good best guess.

I call shenanigans!
jongatward
the pilot or co-pilot of the aircraft waited until one or other was out of the cockpit, the transponder and air to ground message system was turned off without the other knowing, when one left the cockpit the door was locked from inside, the plane was then flown to maximum height and who ever was in the cockpit reduced the oxygen to the people outside the cockpit, when all life was clearly lost he then walked around the plane, until he put it in the sea at the end of its fuel. The form of murder has been used quite a few times as the murderer feels he or she is god in the time they spend with the deceased person or persons, it is very unfortunate that one of the pilots had this mental imbalance. Two examples of such God person killing can be found with Dr Harold Shipman and Denis Neilson unfortuantly.
davews
The cockpit is in the same pressurized area as the cabin. You can't do what you suggest without wearing an oxygen mask for long enough to carry this out and return the fuselage to livable pressure before the oxygen supply this person would be using is depleted.
Derg
Roland Dent 1
Not to scare the general population but there are reasons why all aircraft stay close to land for as long as possible. Once you are out over the water you and your machine are at greater risk. Some airlanes over water are busy..the Atlantic is one...and there are always usually some other avaitors within to look out for you an hour or two. Very different to this part of the Indian Ocean. If you are a student pilot in a location where water is common you get told not to go over there which seems just plain idiotic at that time..but from that moment on you equate flying over water as risky.
avihais
Martin Haisman 1
The satellite data has been confirmed and peer reviewed to check for any discrepancies. It is old data from a 1990's satellite so its not pinpoint accuracy and the last ping or "handshake" could have been before the fuel ran out.

Sometimes nothing beats old technology and still a search over 100 miles of ocean. Hopefully FDR and CVR were still active however only 15 or so days before their pings run out.

No surprises as to the end just the same where is it?
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
"the last ping or 'handshake' could have been before the fuel ran out."

Well if the engine has to be powered for the ping handshake, the the last ping would been between 1-59 minutes* before the engine cut out.

*possible adjustment necessary IF the engine is able to ping the while plane gliding down to ocean (because of some backup battery or electrical generation capacity while gliding). But the gliding time is likely to be less than post ping run time, which can ve up to 59 minutes.)
mwardle99
Mark Wardle 1
Maybe this question has been asked before but not much in the media that I have come across, but why is it even an option to turn off a transponder on a commercial airliner? I can understand for military but what possible benefit is there for it not to be hard wired on a commercial plane. Personally I rather like the idea that somebody knows exactly where I am all the time when flying around the world and am certain that I am not alone.
WDB57
Patrice Venne 1
Because it always been that way. In the old times when you had an electric problem or electric fire the way to fix/figure/reset (like with your PC)was to turn off the switch or breaker or fuse. In older transponder you might have a transmission freeze and ATC will ask you to recycle you transponder (turn it off and on). With CANbus systems the argument of electric fire is loosing ground but the industry has never tackle the question. Perhaps after the $$$$ wasted on the first week or two of MH370 search someone will come up with something. Inmarsat proved it very well; cheap and energy friendly. The transponder is a more robust piece of gear that provide data to ground RADAR and TCAS to flight deck.
mwardle99
Mark Wardle 2
I had a feeling it might be because it has not been an issue before. Lets hope they fix that now. I assume that in order to get to the Southern Indian Ocean it had to fly over Indonesian airspace unless it deliberately went all the way round? One would think that someone there ought to have noticed an unidentified plane even without a transponder?
WDB57
Patrice Venne 1
You're right Mark. Does not make sense it's like all primary RADARs where in sleep mode or MH370 went out in the open to stay clear of RADAR and turned south. In that case it shows again human intention to avoid detection. It is weird that no one but the Malaysian military had MH370 on record. The only plausible explanation is that the airplane flew west some 600nm before turning left heading southeast. That's the only way to avoid primary RADAR detection from the Indonesian air defense system UNLESS they were sleeping like their Malaysian colleagues. We are as smart as our latest f...up. One more difficult thing here is that we are dealing with military people they're not known for being forthcoming and if someone did something bad they won't talk unless someone finds out.
mwardle99
Mark Wardle 1
Exactly right. That is why I think that there is more to this than we will ever find out, and that somebody somewhere knows a whole lot more than they are prepared to admit. Even if the true reasons are genuinely unknown, one can't help feeling that politics are playing a huge part in this and it would not surprise me if they never find anything.
Derg
Roland Dent 1
No coincidence that most of the hardware used was busy over SE Europe. Australia will have AWACS records but there is no way they will make these public. I support them. Why should any military display the capability?
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
That's not true.

It seems at least the Malaysians and Vietnanmese saw the plane on radar. The Thai also admitted days later, to having seen the plane.

It is also possible the plane was seen by Indonesean and Singaporean radar, as it traveled south. It may have also been seen by Australian (or others) radar as it moved toward Australia/ Antarctica in an unusual flightpath.
WDB57
Patrice Venne 1
You should read my post and maybe you'll read what a wrote.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
The Malaysians only admitted that they had tracked MH370 back across the peninsula, only after the Vietnamese insisted that it turned around.

They were forthcoming with their military radar info. The same with the Thais. They didn't volunteer any info, until after they were asked specifically about what they saw.

It is possible others saw the plane, but have not offered their military info for the public record. OT seems no one wants to give away the secrets of their military capabilities.

So I say that the Malaysians were not the only ones to see the plane. They aren't even the only ones to admit to seeing the plane. There may even be others who saw, but have not yet admitted to seeing it. Maybe some others might never share.
mollythedolly
Angie Hayek 1
Sucks to have to learn the hard way how to handle a disaster of this magnitude. Maybe other small countries in the area will learn from these mistakes and if god forbid something like this ever happens in their neighborhood again they will be more prepared. This could happen anywhere where the people at their jobs had gotten into to much of a routine and just never thought anything like this would ever happen. Its a horrible wake-up call for people to be vigilant at their jobs when hundreds and thousands of peoples lives are at stake as they fly over at any given time.
fpk2
fernando kosop 1
no wreckrage no nothing!!!! sorry mr. PM....but that plane can be "parked" all over but where you guys "state" it is. this whole story is far from over...way far. thera are more to the whole than what they have been forcing down the public´s guts.
avihais
Martin Haisman 2
The confirmation of the flight path ending in the Indian ocean. See my other comments tracking and peer review of data means no landing and the time frame for a rare occurrence (Hudson river accepted as one except many boats near came to rescue before sinking) of a successful water landing and evacuation is zero.

A sad event but inevitable outcome.
preacher1
preacher1 1
As far as I am concerned everything is still on the table. Their announcement of the location is just a face saving deal to get it off the table and the world spotlight off them. Malaysian Airlines lost money last year. They'll have their insurance company pay off the pax relatives and get the payment for a 777 and deal with the rest of it later. Considering all that has been proffered, this scenario is as good as anything out there.
Wayne47
The fact that even China is formally asking to see what evidence resulted in Malaysia's announced demise of MH 370 is a strong vote of no confidence. At best it would seem that perhaps one of their pilots decided to make a political statement against the government and deliberately took the lives of over 200 trusting soles.

The Malaysia has aptly demonstrated they can not handle their airline flight safety responsibilities either as an airline or as a government entity. Their ATC is too slow to react to changes in airborne aircraft's circumstances and their military cannot move fast enough either. And their processing of boarding pax from a security standpoint is in a failure mode.

Malaysia should be isolated from the air transport network until it is clear they can do better. No airline should accept their through passengers and no commercial air carrier should permit their aircraft to enter Malaysian airspace until it is clear Malaysia has addressed their flight safety deficiencies satisfactorily.
tf51d
Thomas Cain 1
Assuming the hypoxia theory (Which I personnally don't subscribe to), I ran a test with the PMDG 777-200LR (Which is considered a pretty accurate 777 sim for Microsoft Flight Simulator and the same sim the pilot used on his Home sim) with the following assumptions! Had max PMDG passenger load which is a little less then how many was on board. Cargo I set to 6000/5000kg (Since unknown I didn'r use max) then fuel load 63580kg (Calculated fuel load by EFASS a flight planning program from WMKK to ZBAA, the original destination), Trip fuel would have been 52700) Weather set with ASN (A weather generating addon) to 3/7 16:30z Departed WMKK at 00:42 local time (16:42Z) Near waypoint IGARI was the last ATC contact (Time 01:21), Something happened and the plane turn west towards Waypoint VAMPI. Turn took 2 minutes to complete as media reported (Normal LNAV turn) Performed emergency descent, with speedbrakes to 12000ft (As Malaysian radar suggests, what is unknown though is how long it took to get to 12000ft, which would indicate weather or not it was an emergency descent?). I set speed to max at that level without over speeding (about 325kts), Assuming they would be flying as fast as they could to an alternate (At least til approach) At this point their heading would be about 265. Then at VAMPI (Middle of Malacca Straits - Last radar contact from Malaysian radar ) some how turned South I used 185 I used Hdg Sel. Flew at 12K from there on that heading. There were some mountain ranges over Sumatra but at that altitude the plane would have made it over them. At 8:11 Malaysian time (00:11Z) (Last known Satellite ping) It would have been West of the Northern tip of Australia West of Exmouth., and would have had about 8000KG fuel remaining (Amount of fuel on board at time in the 200LR Of course the 200ER would be different). Time wise that means it could have flown an additional :59 minutes max, since no more pings was heard. That would put it around West of Gregory or Yallatharra AU. if it had the extra fuel. That would mean though it would be flying up t 8:30 hrs. This is way North of the current search area. Which would be correct if the plane flew at cruise altitude. If hypoxia was the issue though, there is no way the plane would have been anywhere near cruise altitude If this is the case, and Inmarsat path is correct, I think they're searching to far South, if it was a hypoxia/fire scenario.
Derg
Roland Dent 1
That's the key Thomas...the fuel load.
whip5209
Ken McIntyre 1
One of my earliest "speculations" about 370 was..."You are leaving Kuala Lampur at midnight. You lose all electrical power to instruments and such (fire), but still have flight controls. What would YOU do in that situation?" I would turn east or southeast and navigate by compass or stars. Try to stay in the air as long as possible, and wait for the sun to rise. Then hope to find a runway or a flat area. Australia has a lot of flat areas.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
It's a darned shame that the Malaysians never sent up a fighter jet to investigate the missing flight. (At least they haven't disclosed publicly having done so.)

The passengers on that flight deserved that somebody cared enough to give a damn. The pilots too. If they were involved with a catastrophic incident that was greatly interferring with the normal operation and navigation of their aircraft, it would've helped to have a team of fighters escorting them through known airspace with functioning navigation equipment.

Even if all aboard perished in tbe same manner, at least:
1) they would've all known, in their last moments, that somebody cared enough to give a damn.
2) they deserved every fighting chance at finding an airstrip.

But after 3 decades flying, the pilot would've known that Austrslia was SE from Malacca and not S. Even the new guy would know the geography in his corner of the world. They should both be able to navigate with a compass, and know which way to go to follow a SE heading.

I still struggle with the realization that the plane flew a heading that took it and all its' occupants to the roughest churning seas, in that part of the world. Not only were no airfields available anywhere near there, but the rough seas, and jumbled currents were likely to make surviving in that area on a life raft challenging, likely to scatter the debris in a random unknown direction (which would vary greatly based on where exactly the plans impacted the water).

What a mess. I hope not intentionally. But I can't but wonder.
whip5209
Ken McIntyre 1
Well Photo, I'll speculate about your and my speculation. With all the odd course changes, it is possible the crew and passengers were overcome by smoke from the fire. I know my theory is awfully thin. But I'm trying to rationalize that the crew was doing everything they could to save the situation. Wishful thinking, I know.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
Elementary my Dear Watson
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
I'm nit speculating here.

Just making s commentary.

If in fact there was a struggle to maintain control if the airplane and a valiant attempt at finding at finding am airfield blind and in the darkness,

They could've had a fighter escort to investigate and:
1) to help them find a safe harbor (airstrip); or
2) to escort the fallen into the bowels of cold dark sea, if all hope and life was lost.

I'm taking about sending up some fighters to
1) to figure out what's happening
2) to provide assistance (if possible)
3) to provide dignity (if beyond hope)
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
if there was a fire and it was electrical how would they ask for help?
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 2
A 777 airliner with 239 souls goes missing, with the transponder no longer transmitting and the pilots not responding to ATC and other nearby traffic.

If an unknown bogey flies across their airspace, it wouldn't be a bad idea to actually wake up a couple of pilots and get them into the air. That's how.

Not only coils they investigate to find out:
1) if that bogey flying off-course is the missing airliner
2) if that airliner is in trouble, with pilots struggling for control.
3) if the pilots were at the controls
4) if someone else was at the controls
5) if they were slumped over in the seat
6) if the lights were on
7) windows open/closed
8) passenger movement or lack of movement
etc. etc.

There are so many observations that could be made and questions answered by just showing up. Bit that seems to not have happened. At least the Malaysians have not admitted to ever have scrambled any planes to check on the missing plane, after notified that contact was lost and they stopped responding.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
That's true in a place like the US but as we see the radar coverage in that part of the world is minimal if that and we don't even know how many hours that controller had worked, if there was a shift change and if it was the last flight of the night...As far as we know as soon as that controller handed them off he/she could have very well gone home for the night.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
KLIA is a major int'l airport. They must have a 24-hour tower, as well as a 24-hour center to manage the transiting traffic.

Vietnam ATC reported to Malaysia tbat they LOST CONTACT with MH370 and that they were NOT RESPONDING early on. They did so immediately after contact was lost, IM that first hour of flight, when they went comoletely silent, bit could be seen on military radar turning back toward the Malaysian peninsula.

There is no valid excuse to allow an airliner to just disappear without doing anything to investigate and look for the plane, until the airliner is found or until the plane again regains radio and/or radar contact.
avihais
Martin Haisman 1
I would be comfortable to say that most nations would not send up a fighter jet every time a transponder stopped transmitting.

I'm sure may people gave a damn, were concerned when they could not establish contact and the initiation of the emergency procedures. Any many would be worried sick for the passengers and crew.

No one knows what happened and who/what initiated the seemingly programmed or controlled flight movements.

The calculations and confirmation of its last movements using old techniques still only means a 100 odd miles of search area, and possibility of some remaining fuel since it last identified ping.

Therefore it is still a lost aeroplane, similar 100 mile search area as the first assumed flight path except now they actually know where it went and the depth has gone from retrieving most or the aeroplane in 60 meters of water to a painstaking job of trying to identify key aircraft wreckage in 4000 odd meters of water to bring up, trying to get the black boxes, and giving a damn about body retrieval. That's if they can find it.



PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Not just a transponder that stopped transmitting.

There was also no response to ATC.
There was also a turn back on radar at the point of handoff between Malaysia and Vietnam ATC centers, away from the filed flight path.

There was either an airplane in distress or an airplane that had gone rogue (in control of a bad unknown actor).
magicelle78
Ella Talbott 1
Don't think you understand the nature of an in-flight fire. Of all the aircraft I am aware of that have suffered in-flight fires, none flew for 7 hours..... It's a possible scenario if authorities have the "ping" data wrong but if that were the case, debris would be over either the South China Sea, straight of Malacca or Malaysia itself. No flight I'm aware of flew more than an hour with a fire on board.

Fuel starvation seems the most likely but it's just the why and how.
preacher1
preacher1 2
Not quite sure of your qualifications, but I think he is very understanding of an electrical fire. Not saying he is right but that his theory is as good as anything out there. With all the bungling that the Malaysian government has done to date and 3 weeks having gone by without a sign of a debris field, I am going to have to wait and see a plane before I accept anything. I have a personal theory like the other 1000+ people that have commented on this happening but none will be vindicated until the plane/fdr is found. Somebody has sued Boeing already, yet after 3 weeks, no one has had access to the maintenance records. The NTSB called for maintenance records on Asiana 214 one afternoon and had them from South Korea the next morning. I pray that the NTSB lab will get the FDR, if ever recovered, but it will be Malaysia's to do with as they see fit. If not handled properly, it can be totally screwed up on opening.
magicelle78
Ella Talbott 1
Oh so we need qualifications to post on here??? Because you are qualified in everything about Aviation right?? Please.

Of course it could have been an in-flight fire, but with all the information to date, if correct, a fire is unlikely.

Can't imagine an aircraft on fire flew 7 hours........
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
I infered from "Don't think you understand the nature of an in-flight fire", that you are speaking from some level of expertise or authority. Maybe it was just the wording, but it sounded that way. I have come across that way on occasion myself.

JMHO
OBomb
Mike O'Connor 1
Notifying the families of the victims via only text message is absolutely unconscionable.
Wayne47
The Monday morning Malaysian Government's announcement that the plane went down in the Indian Ocean based on some "new" analysis with no other corroborating evidence rings of just wanting the whole pax drama and media pressure to be "quick whistled" and just be over.

The Malaysian government may actually prefer that MH370's wreckage never to be found for reasons of potential political embarrassment and liability. This episode points to a serious problem with government owned Airlines in that every bit of their emergency response and or comment has to be weighted for its potential implications to the ruling forces ability to retain power so you see facts emerge and get changed repeatedly. Also in this case the Malaysian air force is vulnerable to being found incompetent as is their airport security capabilities both of which the government is responsible to oversee.
preacher1
preacher1 1
bradmoreso
Brad Morrison 1
"...Malaysian government may actually prefer that MH370's wreckage never to be found..."

That was my first thought after the first reports and statements from Malay government. The whole thing has seemed way, way too slow, even slower than expected from a country where the government tries to control everything, i.e., messaging.

Sixteen days later, it still could be some fantastic, unbelievable story that produces any survivor(s) -- but every passing day now makes it 2x harder to believe just the story so far. At the very least, I expect credible evidence.

Maybe the ultimate takeaway here is that there are still some events possible in our new world of surveillance that remain unseen. No matter what, some will push very hard to raise awareness and control of civilian aircraft.

Could this have happened with a military aircraft? Has it already? How many times? Would they, will they ever tell us?
Derg
Roland Dent 1
Of course they don't tell you.
Pwbenoliel
Peter Benoliel 1
I feel that the only true way to know what happened is with the flight data recorders. And if they find them (big "if" although Air France incident proved there is a chance), it will not be conclusive due to the limited recording time. So the conversation in the cockpit when the initial turn to the SW heading would I think be lost.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 2
The Flight Data Recorder had the capacity to record the entire flight. It's the Cick Voice Recorder that is limited to the last 2 hours or so.
avihais
Martin Haisman 2
There is no switch for the FDR but usually there is a circuit breaker. There is someone out there that can tell or trace from its serial number 28420 or a standard 777
avionics setup.

That said if there was any suspicious activity (Big if) I would assume (Dangerous word)disabling the FDR would not be on the necessary list of being devious.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Yeah, but if the malfunction was electrical starting back up there around the turn, the FDR and CVR will probably both cut off there
avihais
Martin Haisman 1
Usually the FDR has a battery back up and the CVR if still running is either the old model - yes two hours or less and if the modern solid state model (Malaysian airlines hazard a guess not) several days. Concorde had the old tape 30 minutes if your lucky model!
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
12 years ago is a long time technologically speaking. Any thumb drive today would hold lots of hours more recordings, and would be likelier to survive an impact force. But 12 years is 12 years. Imagine a $9 thumb drive would fly circles on whatever they were installing 12 years ago.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
That's no different than the computer in the S-3A Viking. A Commodore 64 of the time was more powerful with a CPU that took up less than one-tenth the space. That's literally true. From what I understand, it wasn't much of an improvement when the overhauled the fleet to the S-3B.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Oh, that's right. But as you say, even that will provide valuable information.
Pwbenoliel
Peter Benoliel 1
Thanks for the clarification!
preacher1
preacher1 1
It will depend if it lost power or not but either way, it will shed a whole lot of light.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
All Lives Are Lost
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/24/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane

A few highlights near the end of article:

"On Sunday, they clarified that statement further, saying the plane's automated data reporting system included no route changes in its last burst, sent at 1:07 a.m. -- 12 minutes before the last voice communication with flight controllers."

"That reduces, but doesn't rule out, suspicions about foul play in the cockpit."

"Now we have no evidence the crew did anything wrong," Miles O' Brien CNN analyst.

"Authorities have said pilot Zaharie Ahmad Shah was highly experienced. On Monday, Malaysian authorities said Flight 370 was co-pilot Fariq Abdul Hamid's sixth flight in a Boeing 777, and the first time when he was not traveling with an instructor pilot shadowing him."
fpk2
fernando kosop 0
THERE THEY GO AGAIN.......GUESSING AND GUESSING.....WHAT A BUNCH OF JERKS!!
avihais
Martin Haisman 1
Err - solid data and peer reviewed. Still long way to finding it.
ricko1
Rick Beekman 0
Ken
Since you are a pilot and I am not, I will agree with you. I have had over 40 years of dealing with the public in marketing and sales I have witnessed many schemes where people try to deceive others to win arguments or to sell an Eskimo a refrigerator. The Malaysian government exactly describes this Brother...
Derg
Roland Dent 1
Right On .. well said.
NawazMirza
Nawaz Mirza 0
Why are their fingers pointing at muslims, what if it is a technical or human error??
ungibbed
Brian Corey 1
If you're implying that I am anti-Muslim, that couldn't be any further from what is considered truth. It's the media spin from every source making the results and the absolute truth of the matter harder to resolve.
Derg
Roland Dent 1
Media spin under political pressure. We all have had enough of this bullying by politicians who like to set people agin each other, sell arms to both sides..then sit back and watch the slaughter while they collect the money.
Derg
Roland Dent 1
Mirza...get this straight..I do not know of ONE person who is prejudiced agin any other culture. The politicians like to wind people up. The politicians do not have to take resposibility for 100s of real time lives every day. We all have our petty personal opinions but commercial aircrews are balanced emotionally stable people.
LMcConville
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Malaysia Airlines MH370 assumed lost and no survivors

Malaysian Airlines says it now has to assume "beyond any reasonable doubt" that missing flight MH370 has been lost and there are no survivors.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26716572
NawazMirza
Nawaz Mirza 0
A hard pill to swollow. If in this modern times and advanced technology we can trace mobile phones, how come they failed to trace all the phones onboard???
Derg
Roland Dent 1
Because there are no damn cell towers in the Indian Ocean and the available satellite width is dedicated to the ACARS system for the damn aviators. You think band width grows on trees. Malaysian airlines do not have the money to buy bandwidth. The only companies that do are the big ones like FedEx UPS Lufthansa...etc etc..they NEED the band width because they do a truly global service.
outward
Jimmy Robinson 0
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Malaysia PM Says Missing Jetliner's Glight Ended in Indian Ocean

Malaysia's Prime Minister Najib Razak says new analysis of satellite data in the search for Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 indicates that the plane’s flight ended in the Southern Indian Ocean.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/03/24/malaysia-jet-search-races-against-weather-as-china-reports-new-object-sighting/
granny02
This does sound suspicious,.First the Middle East, South America, Europe, now Asia???....All on the verge of war.
outward
Jimmy Robinson 0
Oops! Should have proof-ready before hitting 'submit'. Sorry.
NawazMirza
Nawaz Mirza -1
mike oxlong 3 days ago -9

Downvote
Upvote

someday the world will be rid of muslims and this crap will stop.
COULD MR. MIKE OXLONG PLEASE MAKE A PUBLIC APOLOGY FOR POINTING FINGER AT MUSLIMS. I SHALL COPY PASTE HIS REMARKS ON EVERY SOCIAL NETWORK.
magicelle78
Ella Talbott 1
granny02
Martha Eskridge -1
Perhaps the plane was on remote control like some believe about the 9/11 incident?
FOOD FOR THOUGHT!

One country some say did seem to try to provoke a war between the two koreas & China.
NawazMirza
Nawaz Mirza -1
mike oxlong
Member since about a month ago
Last seen online about 5 hours ago
Pilot certificate ATP
Language English (USA)


Roland, this is the guy, and i am requesting the administration to take appropriate
action not to take this lightly, noting that he is a pilot unfortunatly.
NawazMirza
Nawaz Mirza -1
mike oxlong
Member since about a month ago
Last seen online about 5 hours ago
Pilot certificate ATP
Language English (USA)

ricko1
Rick Beekman -1
Couple things here needing to be addressed. First, allowing two Iranian citizens who bought two stolen passports. Either one was screened before boarding. When this information is discovered, The Malaysian Government then claims they were "OK" just trying to emigrate to Europe on stolen Passports? Excuse me, but this is the first red flag.Then the 20 employees of a semi conductor company being possible targets.
Then the days of missing information, meanless rheotoric explanations. This all seems like deliberate stalling tactics. Finally; Malaysia is a nation of known terrorists of a fanatical religion, and that is another huge red flag.If I were the Governments of the world; I would not let them enter our airspace until this case is resolved.Money talks and trumps phony rhetoric.
Wayne47
Michael Townsley -1
Some confirmation either from recovered wreckage or confirmation of the satellite analysis by the US's NTSB would be helpful. The Malaysians perhaps have other confirming information that is not being shared at this time. The reports that the plane's fight director was reprogrammed for the initial course deviation if true is very vexing.
nasdisco
Chris B 1
Michael: The British AIB (UK version of NTSB) and Immersat worked together digging deeper into the data stream provided to improve the accuracy of the analysis.
I am fully confident in their ability to have come up with the information that has lead to this sad discovery. http://www.aaib.gov.uk/home/index.cfm

Reports earlier today indicated that recovery of items was in progress. I assume they made the connection to the downed flight from the debris they have recovered
preacher1
preacher1 1
Michael: as far as re or preprogramming, it is not unusual, as a matter of fact required, that alternates or diversion airports be entered. A senior pilot knows where he is at all times of the flight and where his diversion airports are in relation to that. Those alternates are programmed in but not entered unless they are needed. I do not profess to know what happened but the turn was on the exact heading for one of those field. 2 pushses of a button and it is entered and the aircraft is turning, allowing the pilot to go to something else. The vexing part is what happened to cause it.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Does anyone have details about which would've been the likely alternate airport, and the runway layout and approach heading needed to land?
robertjacqi
Has it been raised that the pilot was flyingSouth towards Australia to stay in darkness. If he'd flown East or West he would have encountered the rising sun sooner, but South gave him the longest amount of flying hours under darkness?
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
That makes no sense unless he was headed for... where? Antarctica?
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Wouldn't flying AWAY FROM the sunrise keep in darkness longer (ie. west).
robertjacqi
yeh true, just thought that KL and Perth on same time zone...
magicelle78
Ella Talbott 1
Heading to Australia is south and would be heading INTO the sunrise because time doesn't stand still!! West would have been preferable to stay in the dark.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
There was another article in an earlier thread that mentioned a 14,000 foot strip somewhere to the west that made sense with that turn. I don't recall the name but only thinking that's a huge runway for that region.
robertjacqi
They might have been heading for Australia, similar to hijackers on Flight 961 Ethiopian Airlines.. who knows..
preacher1
preacher1 1
I can't recall the name either but I remember it was 13000ft and on the exact heading of the turn and right on the ocean. The comment was made that it had a clear approach from the ocean and he would not have to go over the ridges back into KL.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
Palau Langkawi
avihais
Martin Haisman 1
The pings ended in the Indian ocean which I have stated before, as confirmed so the guesswork about landing has been negated. So we are back to an airliner transponder stopped appearing on civilian radar and now its path has been confirmed to end in the Indian ocean. Back to day one about 100 square miles search area, unless wreckage starts to appear on the surface or ships/aircraft/satellites can be re positioned to find FDR/CVR pingers.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
A landing strip just off the South China Sea/ Gulf of Thailand does not explain heading changes that happen on the opposite side of the peninsula, in the direction of Indian Ocean/ Strait of Malacca.
preacher1
preacher1 1
That, my friend, is the 64$ question.
yr2012
matt jensen -3
Did the Malaysian fleet have the newest autopilots installed? You know the ones created by Boeing after 911 = to prevent hijackings = the Thales Uninterruptible Auto Pilots
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
Say what?
yr2012
matt jensen 1
Thales Uninterruptible Auto Pilots
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 0
Which are what? I've never heard of such a thing.
yr2012
matt jensen 1
Really? Developed for Boeing to prevent hijackings:

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=0041c1b9-d938-4956-a88e-436c8fc8ba45

http://www.homelandsecuritynewswire.com/boeing-wins-patent-uninterruptible-autopilot-system
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
It will never happen.

Unless government mandates it then you'll have pilots bailing. I'll be anxious to read comments from any heavy metal drivers on having control of the plane taken from them in flight.
wwharris
Bill Harris 8
"Land the plane, HAL!"

"I'm sorry, Dave, I afraid I can't do that."
preacher1
preacher1 3
Talk about being along for the ride. LOL
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
then you grab the ax and start smashing it...lol
yr2012
matt jensen 1
Research Capt Field McConnell
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 0
I'm seeing a bunch of conspiracy nonsense.

How about factual data as ruled valid in court?
yr2012
matt jensen 1
Not so sure about conspiracy, but Capt McConnell sued Thales

http://advanceindiana.blogspot.com/2014/03/why-everything-media-has-told-you-about.html

http://www.dailypaul.com/314520/field-mcconnell-letter-to-president-of-the-air-line-pilots-association-re-boeing-uninterruptible-autopilot
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 0
So, rather a law suit for truth we have a demand for money.

I see...
preacher1
preacher1 0
I'm kinda confused here. In 2008, before I retired the 1st time, me and my replacement as well as a couple of Boeing reps, hand specced our replacement 767, from 100% of the mechanics and avionics pkg to laying out the initial mod for Associated in Dallas. This software/hardware, whatever it is, never was put on the table. I don't know if it was because we weren't 121 or what but I have never heard of it. This sounds like something out of the onion.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Just in the for what it's worth dept., CNN just ran a piece on this and that technology is there and patented by Boeing as Matt and the links say, BUT, they did say it had not been deployed to anyone and that Boeing won't talk to them about it.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
not to anyone, but maybe someone? Hmmmmmm.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
It's probably a federal contract deemed confidential under national security.

It would not surprise me this government would want that ability.
yr2012
matt jensen 1
Are you guys kidding me? Remote controlled jets have been around since there was Gen Dyn post VN - the AF was fitting QF102 & 106 with remote pilot capabilities. Later Q16's were modified. Even the B720 was equipped with it - the fantastic crash in the NV desert. Today's UAV's ops over the Ghan from MacDill. Gen Dyn & USAF had the technology then - what makes you think Boeing doesn't have it now?
preacher1
preacher1 1
Not saying that it ain't. Just saying I sure as hell wouldn't like it and that in speccing out that brand new 767 in 2008, it was not on the table. There is a whole lot of technology out there that has never been implemented.
yr2012
matt jensen 1
http://www.ibtimes.com/new-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-cyber-hijack-theory-emerges-after-vulnerabilities-found-inflight
preacher1
preacher1 2
Maybe I'm kinda dense but you talk about a system that is on the market and installed on most 121 stuff, then you post this link about a hacker and you have never answered Ken's question about who is in the loop and would control one.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 0
As soon as I saw "NPR" referenced in that article I closed the page. They were part of the leftists saying the Iraqi war was for oil.

I'm still waiting for an announcement of gaining free oil.
yr2012
matt jensen 1
Since you didn't read the article - let me inform you that "A document filed on the US Federal Register website indicates that aircraft manufacturer Boeing applied to have additional security installed aboard some of its 777 series of airplanes five months ago to prevent onboard hacking of critical computer systems.

Boeing said that it was upgrading the 777-200, 777-300 and 777-300ER series of passenger jet with a new onboard network system."
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
That does not mean they are installing an override to the autopilot.

I have over a thousand hours teaching instrument flight using the Garmin G1000. Though not applicable to the Cessna installations, on Mooneys and Pipers at least, it's possible to download flight plans via datalink entered on FltPlan.com when the system powers up. That was available to small planes four years ago.

I'm sure it's used with many air carriers due to longer and more complex routing where the pilot does not have to replicate what was written by the dispatcher thereby reducing the chance of error.

With that feature also comes risk with unauthorized access; i.e., hacking. If you read the entry in the Federal Register, you'll also notice the piece stated, "...will have novel or unusual design features associated with the architecture and connectivity of the passenger service computer network systems to the airplane critical systems and data networks."

That is, a concern is hacking by a passenger who could access interconnected flight systems. It's a change dealing with eliminating that access as well as outside access.

There is no mention of an autopilot hardware change.

And, you never answered my question on who would access this supposed autopilot you claim is installed? Who would activate it and who would steer the plane?
preacher1
preacher1 1
A similar if not identical system has been in use for years with the airlines, that allow a preprogrammed flight plan transmitted to a plane by a dispatcher; Pilot has the authority to accept, tweak it, or reject it for whatever necessary reason. If this is what I'm thinking, it just further secures that datalink.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
I believe the previous transmission was more of a closed network. I thought that was even done via ACARS but I may be mistaken.

Now, there's more use of the internet for transmitting data opening the door to hacking. Throw in the passengers with their potential access to the aircraft's systems and risk increases.
preacher1
preacher1 1
I'm not worried as it is really not going to affect me anymore but you know, all we are really doing with all this is giving some goober an idea to try it. LOL
yr2012
matt jensen 1
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-could-jets-system-have-been-hacked-1439928
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
well....it was for oil....oil in which China got....Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11....that's like your friend wrecking your car and you going and beating the crap out of your neighbor for it.
yr2012
matt jensen 1
Exactly! And, the reason we were picking up the slack for Russia 10 yrs in the ghan was? An oil pipeline!
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 0
Where did I or anyone else informed say Iraq had any play in the 9/11 attacks?

Fact: Hussein hated Muslims.
Fact: Hussein hated the United States.
Fact: Hussein would gladly assist the enemy of his enemy and he did so.

Fact: Al Queda had training camps in Iraq though not sanctioned specifically by Hussein.
Fact: Hussein was trying to start a nuclear program.
Fact: Hussein was working on a biological weapons program.

Fact: Hussein did have some biological WMDs in small quantity.
Fact: Hussein refused continued inspection for weapons and hid what they did have.

Fact: Bush and Powell set the plans for invasion based on an Iraqi informant to the CIA. The informant was code named "Curveball".
Fact: Years later, Curveball admitted to lying about the WMDs he reported to the CIA in an effort to gain US residency for him and his family. His information matched other intelligence and satellite data forcing Bush to make a move or risk continued growth of weapons.

Hussein was doing everything he could to develop more dangerous weapons and he would have gladly shared them with al Queda given both hated the US and other free nations.

Fact: You're not very well informed.

One more thing... that was a war fought with political correctness. We should have gone in and established Marshall Law and closed the borders under the penalty of death. We did not do that and insurgents were able to come in and kill our forces. We should have established and maintained positive control no differently than we did for more than a decade after the surrenders of Japan and Germany.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 2
Fact: no major stockpile was found which brings me back to the oil...they needed a reason to go back there.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 2
Oil is the reason for the strategic value of the Middle East, and not just for US interests, but for the interests of the world's economic interests.

How the US got into that mess had a lot to do with the circumstances, that included an Hussein who wanted/ needed to project strength, and so never denied claims of nuclear or WMD ambitions, the exiled Iraqis who had a reasons to either believe the false claims and/or a desire to bring down Hussein, so had every reason to corroborate the WMDs. So that influenced the world's intelligence agencies to believe in the WMDs. Then throw in the neocon advisors that were hawkish and itching to go to war, sets the stage for son Bush to finish the work that father Bush had left undone, when saving the Kuwaitis' back sides, decades before.

History will lay it at the feet of the man who made the decision. But everything lined up to encourage that decision.

Had any of those elements been missing, including the location with lots of oil that is strategic o the world's economy.

But to say it's for oil is overly simplistic. Too often the oil contracts don't even go to the US oli companies, despite the US picking up most of the tab for the cost of war. And much of the oil is flowing to China, without much local domestic supply.
yr2012
matt jensen 1
What Saddam had, he moved to Syria weeks before the inspectors arrived.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
And, when was that known?
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 0
The reason was the one I gave you. Did you even read what I wrote? Go research the CIA and Curveball. Even Wikipedia has information on it.

When that came out, the story was buried on the back pages because it vindicated Bush.

And, I did say some weapons were found. It wasn't the quantity as claimed by Curveball but there were weapons. That story was buried as well.

Finally, if we went in for the oil... WHERE IS IT??? Where is all this damn free oil we were going to get? It never happen. It was never intended! Geeze!
preacher1
preacher1 2
My personal opinion is that Bush Jr. needed an excuse, however flimsy, to go back in there and finish the job that Bush Sr. had to quit on. To me it didn't o anything but distract from and prolong Afghanistan. I think that is one reason Tommy Franks went ahead and retired. Folks seem to forget that the only reason we were over there in that part of the world to begin with was to get Bin Laden and as it was, gave that ribbon to Obama.
yr2012
matt jensen 1
Geo II needed to get Saddam for planning the murder of his father. Pure and simple - gratification with Cheney in the background to run the country.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
Now I know you're a conspiracy fruitcake.

I'm done with you.
magicelle78
Ella Talbott 0
Anyone who believes the "official story" re 9/11 and WMD is just as much a gullible fruitcake than those who do not.

It comes down to this- explain how the WTC fell at a rate of 10 floors a second without explosive and then I'll back track from there to changing my mind. The fact that this simple thing stinks puts in question everything else in regards to 9/11 and what followed thereafter.
preacher1
preacher1 1
All the WR Grace fireproofing in the world will not stand up to the concentrated heat of a multi-thousand gallon jet fuel fire, coupled with the fact that steel will met. When it melted, the building came down. Works for me. I got to pull a Hillary as in "What difference does it make?" 3000+ souls are dead and buildings went to the ground.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 0
It has been explained. You're just too thick-skulled to understand it.

I'll add your argument is coming from a non-pilot from a country where citizens stood by and let its government take away its weapons and individual liberty. You're not the brightest nation on the globe.
magicelle78
Ella Talbott 1
Ah only people with low intelligence resort to insults.

Hate to say it but I have all my liberties, I'm just not a red neck that needs a gun.

You do realise that the good old US of A has one of the lowest proficiencies in numeracy and literacy in the developed world right?

The average American is embarrassingly ill-informed and are so arrogant that they really don't care and still think the USA is greatest country in the world.

Go read the article about how dumb Americans are in the New York Post, written in 2013. Your nation is below average my friend.

I'm well informed on your bungling Government and there are millions around the world that don't believe the official story. I guess your time will come to be called a conspiracy nut if and when you don't believe the official story the Malaysian Government releases about MH370.

Sorry to say but the only people who think your country is great, are Americans themselves but I can't blame them because they probably are unaware any other country exists.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
You may be right about the 'average' American. But remember in statistics it is the variance as well as the mean that defines the distribution.

The variance and numbers of Americans seems to indicate there are a lot of bright ones as well.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
"lies, damn lies and statistics."

Statistics can give you a wrong impression of reality. Keep in mind the US is a big country, with lots of diversity of people and cultures. The country us not uniform.

Any time you must resort to averages to make your point, the value of your point willbe average at best. And at worst, you'll get it all wrong.

Consider the innovation that is possible and stimulated in any particular society. A country doesn't have to be a socialist oe communist monoculture that grags down the best outcomes to insure equal outcomes for the sake of averages.

In terms of current innovation, I'll start with a small list which go on almost without limit, but you'll quickly get the point.

Apple
Google
Facebook
Twitter
Whatsapp
Tesla
PayPal
Amazon

[Note I left off Micrisoft, 3M, ExxonMobile,McDonalds, and many other large multinationalsresponsible for large amounts I'd economic output which belief on a second list thar also make my point.

Vegemite and throwing a few shrimp on the barbie just don't measure up, no matter how much solace you find in your average at best argument.]
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
* and many other large multi-nationals responsible for large amounts of economic output which belong
on a second list that also make my point.

---
Even Australia has slums, with people who are different, that are living in poverty, that are failing to assimilate, that are dragging down the averages (but just in smaller numbers). If Australia had to deal with substantially more people from diverse cultures, it is possible Nd even likely that Australia would fail them much worse than the US.

From my many discussions with lots of Australians, the Aussies deal with much the same issues of assimilation, integration and discrimination. Seemingly much less successfully. Luckily for Australia's averages, Australia deals with much smaller numbers of these 'different' people, so Australia's failure to do any better than the US is not adequately reflected in their averages.

The US lifts up many more people than any other country.

But any country that allows hardworking people the freedom to succeed beyond belief, also allows others the freedom to fall on their face.

With the average laziness that is prevalent down under (as per every Aussie that I've ever spoken to) just won't be as successful in the US.
magicelle78
Ella Talbott 1
I never suggested the U.S has not been innovative in this world and I also didn't suggest there are not bright, intelligent and amazingly forward persons in the USA either. What you all fail to understand is that I am your average person in Australia. I have a university degree and work full time for a living. Most of us around the world are "average".

My point here is that the chap who resorts to insults stating that I am "thick skilled" and that I come from a country that as he puts it "not the brightest nation on the globe" is in fact from a nation that statistics show is dumber than your average.

We live in a world of statistics. I'm pretty sure you'll use statistics to support your argument when needed. Quite frankly, I support statistics over your "opinion". Opinion is not fact.

Not only that but you do realise that the USA and it's "innovations" as you put it, aren't entirely the result of one man or men from one country. The internet wasn't just invented by someone in the USA. The World Wide Web(www) was in fact a British invention, if you want to call it that.
WiFi is an Australian invention. So is IVF, Ultrasound and the Bionic ear.
The world is a small place in all reality and not one single innovation is made possible by one single man or woman. It's usually a team of people no doubt encompassing more than one nationality.

But seeing as most of us are average, my argument is valid.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Replies
getting
too
deep.

Relpy
offsets
are
now
20 chars wide.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Deep in more ways than the one.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
I fully expected that you are college educated. Most people are not. As such you're above average, in either US or Australia.

Your 'average' answer provides a below average insight. Most people are not average. Most are either above or below.

I've met many Aussies. Ironically, given your particular expressed views, there has been considerable correlation between the level of college education and frustration over the perceived laziness of fellow Aussies.

'Average' people is just a concept with romantic and socialist notions. Energy spent trying to be average or trying not to be average is wasted effort.

Just be you, the best you, you can imagine for yourself, by your own values and standards. Stop trying to compare yourself to others. You'll probably have a better result in what matters most - life.
magicelle78
Ella Talbott 1
I'm average in a sense that I'm not an innovator in which you were referring Americans as. You were trying to sate how exceptional Americans are because of Google and how tragic Aussies are because of Vegemite.

End of the day this was for Ken. A classic example of a rude and arrogant American. You're not all like him, thank God.
yr2012
matt jensen 1
Capt McConnell sued Boeing - go look it up
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
Successfully?

Was evidence presented that was proven to be credible? Thus far, I'm not seeing that.
preacher1
preacher1 0
The technology may be out there but I haven't heard of it being installed anywhere. As a matter of fact, these links and their articles are the first I've even heard of it. All I got to say is that I'm glad I'm retiring again.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
Not a chance I'd want to relinquish control.

Equipment fails. So, when that inaccessible box fails and the bird's not going where they want it to.... what was that horrible order Bush had no choice but to give but fortunately never had to be carried out?
yr2012
matt jensen 1
If it's on board your jet, you won't know it - until you try to regain control.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
So, how does this thing work? Who is notified and how?

How many people would be in the loop on its existence and operation?
yr2012
matt jensen 1
Obviously above your pay grade. But I've seen it in action - ref QF106 and QF16.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 0
Which means what?

You're the one spouting all this nonsense. So, simply spell it out. All I see is conspiracy nonsense.

Thus far, you've shown all the validity of the 9/11 truther fruitcakes.
magicelle78
Ella Talbott 0
Lol you do realise there is more evidence to suggest an inside job than Islamics with box cutters right?? The only defence you people have is calling those people after the real truth as "truthers and fruitcakes". Just because we don't believe the complete and utter bullshit the great ol' USA gives us doesn't make us fruitcakes. People in the USA are actually some of the dumbest people on earth and will believe anything. May I refer to the documentary Gasland which also shows how corrupt governments are and how they are the biggest spinners of complete BULLSHIT out there.

No disrespect but you are actually the unintelligent one for believing your Government are saints.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
Says a guy who stood by while his government took away individual liberty only to have violent crime increase by 73%?

You people can't even come up with an official definition of "Home Invasion". And you want to put forth a conspiracy theory that would involve hundreds or thousands?

Maybe that's why I've sold airplane pilot kneeboard replacement straps to Australians who do not read the details yet continue to think they can get a marine kneeboard strap for a tenth its normal price.
magicelle78
Ella Talbott 1
lol you do realise that around 5% of the population own a firearm right?? They have a permit to do so because they no doubt live on a farm or hunt for recreation. We have our right to legally own a firearm so I'm not sure where you get your ideas from. I'd like to know where you get your stats from too, 73% seems high and if that's correct, link me please.
Paciano
Geoffrey Luck 1
This is the ultimate conspiracy theory: Someone took control of MH370 to prevent 20 Chinese software engineers who had been working for a company called Freescale in Austin Texas on a patented system for stealthifying ordinary aircraft from returning to China with technical information; that the "someone" took the plane off to the southern Indian Ocean and dumped it there, killing everyone in a desperately brave attempt to save American secrets falling into the hands of the dreaded orientals.

Well, it's one explanation, but not the most likely, surely?

http://beforeitsnews.com/terrorism/2014/03/mh370-cyber-hijack-for-billions-freescale-tech-pilot-warned-about-crisis-gagged-speaks-out-2448396.html
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
There has been so much conspiracy stuff on 9/11, how is it we've never heard of this nor seen it discussed in any aviation periodicals or web sites?
Derg
Roland Dent 1
This website is about the last one that I know of that allows free expression. Pprune and that outfit Aviation Herald are both under the thumb of censorship.

[This poster has been suspended.]

preacher1
preacher1 1
You are really getting flamed over on another post because of you comments about Muslims and they are demanding an apology and that you be removed from the site. Just thought you'd like to know. LOL

[This poster has been suspended.]

THRUSTT
THRUSTT 0
Yeah Phil, Waco was full of Muslims!!!
kwu20001
kev wu -2
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Families of Flight 370 Passengers told that "All lives are lost"

Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 went down in the southern Indian Ocean, Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak said Monday, citing a new analysis of satellite data by a British satellite company and accident investigators.
A relative of a missing passenger briefed by the airline in Beijing said, "They have told us all lives are lost."
While the announcement appeared to end hopes of finding survivors more than two weeks after the flight vanished, it left many key questions unanswered, including what went wrong aboard the Beijing-bound airliner and the location of its wreckage in the deep, wild waters of the Indian Ocean.
For families, some of whom had held out hope their relatives somehow were still alive, the news appeared to be devastating. At a briefing for relatives in Beijing, some were overcome and had to be taken from a hotel on stretchers. In Kuala Lumpur, a woman walked out of a briefing for families in tears.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/24/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
NawazMirza
Nawaz Mirza 0
Mr. Roland Dent Sir, am impressed by your prompt response , but it is this guy WE want to answer MR. MIKE OXLAND if he is a man enough to prove his aligations. Thsnks once again.
Derg
Roland Dent 2
Nawaz more than likely he will be hiding in the lavatory. I am just glad he is a long way from me. I say again 99% of air crews work daily with people from all over the world...the politicians are the real bad guys. They wind people up with the malicious intent of harm and of making money. You go for it Nawaz I am right behind you on your wing. You let go as many missives as you can to bring this errant poster down. Go git!
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
While I understand your concerns, my issue with Muslims in general is there is an extreme lack of speaking out in opposition to terrorist acts by other Muslims or even those under criminal indictment with very strong evidence against them.

There's Council on American-Islamic Relations which has been far from critical of such Islamic radicals and is even suspected of ties to terrorists.

Many on the left speaks out in opposition to Israel and their continued issues with Palestine. Yet not one word is said about the constant missile firing into Israel.

Either Muslims in general are in favor of such acts or they don't care. Either way, I certainly do not hear much said in opposition of such acts.

The other aspect touched on relates to Muslim pilots. Gaining such a position flying heavy metal is not something that just comes to anyone. You can't buy your way into the cockpit of such passenger planes carrying so many lives. You have to work long and hard hours, paying your dues along the way. I tend to think such who have to work so hard do have a different mindset.

There is one likely exception with an Egypt Air flight but no others that are known. I hope that's not the case with MH370 and we'll probably never know. But at this point they were pilots trusted with many lives who tried to save their plane and valuable cargo.

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