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US pilots to be retried for Brazil airline crash

Soumis
 
SAO PAULO — Two American pilots of a business jet will be retried for their role in a 2006 airline crash that killed 154 people in Brazil. (www.cbsnews.com) Plus d'info...

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andrewstagg
Andrew Stagg 7
The NTSB's detailed comments on the crash are here: http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/files/US_Detailed_Comments.pdf

They determined the probable cause was very clearly the failure of Brazilian ATC to properly provide separation between the two aircraft yet Brazil appears to still want to place the blame on the US pilots.
ewandall
ewandall 7
It is a witch-hunt. Very contrary to best practices in accident/incident/mishap investigation.
pilot27usa
pilot27usa 6
Brazilian government knows they are at fault for not providing adequate equipment to provide radar coverage to their airspace, I have flow over that area before and you could fly for hours without being able to get a hold of a center and when you finally do, it's almost impossible to understand due to echo on their radio frequency, but they won't tell the people that! Feel sorry for the families that lost their loved ones and the pilots that ended their career this way ! Brazil sucks big time, coming from a native Brazilian, myself !
andrewstagg
Andrew Stagg 6
Fabiano, both US pilots still hold active FAA pilot certificates and medicals and I believe they are both still flying. The FAA did no enforcement action against either pilot.

The first tragedy was the loss of the 154 people on the Gol flight; in my personal opinion, the second tragedy was the witch hunt against the controller and pilots rather than learning from the disaster and making flying in Brazil safer.
pilot27usa
pilot27usa 4
Third tragedy is that nothing was done since the crash to make flying in Brazil safer!
bentwing60
bentwing60 1
From what I have read, the Issue was ATC assigning the same altitude to opposite direction airplanes. I also think I read that Lapore queried ATC about wrong way altitude assignment. Regardless, they are looking for another bite of the apple that had no responsibility in the accident. The court may rule badly, but they will not be extradited,IMHO.
bizjets101
biz jets 2
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd208/robbreid/N600XLLegacy2.jpg N600XL re-registered as it returned to the USA after release from Brazilian custody, notice the winglet missing.
flyingcookmosnter
Every accident needs a scape-goat. I feel for these pilots. They barely made it down themselves. The audio is freaky.
gearup328
Peter Steitz 1
BOTH AIRCRAFT HAVE TO HAVE THEIR TCAS ON TO GET A RESOLUTION. The first audible is "traffic, traffic". You are then supposed to get a visual on the other aircraft. If nothing is done the next audible is a command (resolution) to DO SOMETHING! Modern glass cockpits also have a visual display of all aircraft within a certain distance and altitude from each other. I'm certain both the aircraft here had this display. I'm afraid either both or one of them didn't have theirs ON. Who's to blame? Yes, ATC failed in their job but that's what TCAS is for. It should be known by the FDR and or CVR.
LITTLEBIRD912
LITTLEBIRD912 1
One of the two Legacy pilots turned the TCAS system off with the sole,of their shoe as the radio is immediately above the foot rest. The legacy had their transponder-Mode C turned off and their TCAS turned off. So no warnings were displayed to either Boeing or Embraer flight crews.
captleo
captleo 1
MY QUESTION IS, DID THAT BRAND NEW BRAZILAN AIRCRAFT HAD ANY TRAFFIC DETECTOR ON BOARD (TCAT?), DID THOSE PILOT HAD THEIR TRANSPONDER "ON" EVEN A CHEAP TRAFIC ALERT WILL LET THEN KNOW OF ANY ONCOMING TRAFIC.
LITTLEBIRD912
LITTLEBIRD912 1
One of the two Legacy pilots turned the TCAS system off with the sole,of their shoe as the radio is immediately above the foot rest. The legacy had their transponder-Mode C turned off and their TCAS turned off. So no warnings were displayed to either Boeing or Embraer flight crews.
bizjets101
biz jets 3
Yes the TCAS had been off for an hour prior to the accident, it may be assumed a crew member inadvertantly turned it off - however they can neither prove this, nor prove which crew member.

In reality both aircraft were following ATC clearances - which in fact - was the cause of this accident.

In hindsight, the TCAS which had not been identified with being 'off' for one hour prior to the accident - more than likely would have saved the day - however it was not the cause.

Further more - a crew member may or may not know how it was turned off, maybe even why - but it is not in their interest to give this information to anyone other than their defense attorney - if anyone!!

The moment the Brazilian's criminalized the investigation - any chance of finding out what may or may not have happened - even if it is now known - can't be proven - and won't ever . . .
gearup328
Peter Steitz 1
Have to agree here, biz jets. If we all could rely on ATC 100% then we wouldn't need TCAS. ATC screws up, TCAS saves the day. This is a good example of the chain of events leading to an accident. Rarely is there only one cause. Having criminalized this accident implies that the Americans intentionally turned off the transponder. Not the case. I doubt if they will be extradited. Let the Brazilians do their thing.
gorsek
wayne gorsek 1
Peter it is legal to fly aircraft and jets in USA without TCAS, what you are saying makes no sense when not required. The fact is ATC caused the accident, period. Could have TCAS prevented possibly but there have been midairs where both had TCAS II and it did not prevent the midair! I have TCAS II 7.1 on my Phenom 300, first in world to have it on a Phenom, it is 400% more effective versus 7.0 but you cannot rely on it for preventing midairs, when you are on an IFR flight plan as they were it is ATCs responsibility to provide separation, if VFR it is the pilots.
gearup328
Peter Steitz 1
Correct me if I'm wrong but the only midair was the DHL in Europe and that was because the TCAS resolution was not followed by the Russians because ATC told them to disregard. Please tell us about the other midair (s) you are referring to. Concerning the TCAS/transponder being inop--if it is OK to do so in your company's MEL, then you can proceed but this has to be in your flight plan with ATC. If it fails in flight, you must advise ATC. If ATC sees that you aren't squawking when you should be, they must advise you. I flew part 121 most of my career with the same Honeywell system and if the TCAS was operable, it HAD to be followed. Had the Americans knew theirs was OFF, I'm sure they would have turned it back on immediately even if it wasn't required. Yes, ATC was a link in the chain that caused the accident, however, if everything was working as it was meant, this accident probably would have been avoided. That's all I'm saying. Unless the American pilots intentionally turned off their system, they are not criminals and the FAA proved that. I'm sure their regret in this tragedy is immense and they are heroes for bringing their plane down in one piece. BTW, the RMU in the ERJ-145 is on the pedestal, not the instrument panel. There is an indication on the MFD that the TCAS is OFF but I wasn't in that cockpit and can't say what the pilots saw. There is no audible warning. One other thing. If you can't rely on it for preventing midairs, as you say, then what do you have it for?
markszar
Mark Szarzak 1
Watch this video. It may give you some of the information you are looking for: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ7GA_jaqA4
Gouvernail
Caio Dias 1
The Gol airliner had it's TCAS and transponder activated at the time of the collision. The charge against Lepore abd Paladino is based on the fact that they had for some reason turned of their plane's TCAS, rendering the system unable to prevent the crash. There is a suspicion that they were doing illegal maneuvers to test the plane, thus the insistence on they being hold responsible for the accident, but that is for the judicial trial - which is not a witch hunt, even the defendants being Americans, quite differently from the current view this forum posts suggest - to determine.
LITTLEBIRD912
LITTLEBIRD912 2
One of the two Legacy pilots turned the TCAS system off with the sole,of their shoe as the radio is immediately above the foot rest. The legacy had their transponder-Mode C turned off and their TCAS turned off. So no warnings were displayed to either Boeing or Embraer flight crews.

They had passengers on board. Their clients would've known if they were doing maneuvers. So they weren't doing maneuvers beyond normal.
wildcardjack
Easy for them to avoid extradition to Brazil. It's double jeopardy, which is prohibited by the US Constitution and extradition would violate their 5th amendment rights.
bizjets101
biz jets 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqY4qukK5QA

http://sharkeyonbrazil.blogspot.ca/

Brazilian prosecutors top aviation witness is an idiot, sorry, should say, Professional Idiot. There is not one iota of evidence to substantiate charges against the American crew.

In a world court, it is the prosecutors who should be charged with circumventing justice, by introducing ludicrous theories without evidence then with a political agenda attempt to see them through.

Any chance of finding anything beyond what is now factually known, for the families of those lost, for the litigants who face huge payouts, to aviation as a whole - was lost the moment the Brazilians criminalized the investigation.

Fools. Everyone loses - except political cronies who get re-elected.
dmaccarter
dmaccarter 1
Poo Poo runs downhill. When a scapegoat is readily available and from a foreign country the slope of the hill gets much steeper. Too bad good people get tarred with this.
Doobs
Dee Lowry 1
Communication...Communication! ATC failed! If the TCAS was turned off, ATC should have picked up on it!
gearup328
Peter Steitz 1
You're right. Lots of mistakes/errors made that day. The only good that came out of it was the landing of the Legacy by the Americans. I feel badly for all who died.
gorsek
wayne gorsek 1
Truly unreal, Brazil should be ashamed of themselves as it was 100% ATC error putting both planes on a collision course and altitude! This makes me afraid to fly my Embraer Phenom 300 in Brazil airspace or pick up a new Embraer in Brazil and fly it back to USA!
Wayne Gorsek
Embraer Phenom 300 owner and pilot
Founder & CEO
http://www.drvita.com
captleo
captleo 1
I DO HAVE A QUESTION, DID THAT BRAND NEW BRAZILIAN AIRCRAFT HAD A (TCAT) OR EVEN A TRANSPONDER THAT WAS TURNED "ON" I FLY WITH A CHEAP TRAFIC ALERT THAT TELL OF ANY TRAFIC AHEAD OF ME, WHAT HAPPEN IN THIS CASE? BRAZILIAN ATC SAID THAT THEY CALLED THAT AIRCRAFT OVER AND OVER AGAIN MANY TIME AND GOT NO ANSWER, DID THEY HAVE THEIR RADIOS ON? OK LET SAY THAT THEY WHERE TO FAR OUT BUT WHAT ABOUT THE "TCAT"
jmc4
john mc 1
Good question, why didn't the airplane carrying 154 have one, or have it turned on? ;/
andrewstagg
Andrew Stagg 2
TCAS works by interrogating the transponders of nearby aircraft. It appears that at the time of the collision the mode C (altitude reporting) on N600XL may have been off. A poor design of the pilot footrest allows it to be inadvertantly turned off with no aural warning.

If a transponder or mode C altitude reporting is inoperative, it is, however, the responsibility of ATC to advise the pilot.
unclebigpete
Peter Douglas 1
With all due respect, captleo, using CAPS for your text is considered to be SHOUTING in forums.
gustavogilsilva
Gustavo Silva 0
It is clear that for North Americans their pilots never be judged guilty. After all, they do not have the transponder on, were guilt of Brazilians. As if the United States had 100% of the areas covered by radar. As in aviation history had more accidents in Brazil than in the United States. In the same way that if you try to fly with the Wright brothers' plane today you could. Because I've never seen an original project of the Wright brothers' airplane could fly. But already the plane's Santos Doumont, besides flying today, was marketed even at the time when manufactured.
fritzjames
James Fritz 2
Gustavo - The French International Organization which is and has been recognized by most all countries as the official organization who certifies all flight claims and records worldwide
has stated that the Wright's plane of 1903 was, in fact, the first heavyer than air machine to take off under its own power, exibit controled flight and land safely.(the definition of first successful powered flight of a heavyer than air machine - the first "airplane") They furthur developed the plane in 1904 and 1905 to fly for at least 30 minutes while making many well controlled banked turns, altitude changes and then land safely. Santos did not fly successfully until 1906 and he crashed the plane.. Anyone can do research on the web and see the 1903 Wright Flyer and accounts of their flights by many witnesses plus a letter from a European plane builder who apologised to them for himself claming to be first in 1906 at about the same time that Santos flew after he saw their plane fly in Europe in early 1906 before Santos. The basic knowledge of how to build a plane was spread to Europe soon after the Wrights first flew by one or two witnesses of their flights and Santos and others used such information to construct their own flying machines. All of what I have said can be verified by careful research using various aviation history sites on the world wide web(www)as has been done by other Brazilins who were not so consumed by nationalistic pride for their own coultry that they then stated that the Wrights were indeed the inventors of the airplane. You can do the research yourself if you want. Only in Brazil is it believed by the general masses that Santos invented the first airplane because the government there wants to have a Brizilian to be known as the first to fly but it is only their misplaced national pride that caused them to build the meuseam there and name an airpor after him and claim that he was the first to fly. The rest of the world knows that is was in fact the Wrights.
gorsek
wayne gorsek 1
Gustavo, in response to Americans not judging pilots guilty, this is not true, I have read about incidents where pilots were convicted and put into jail in America. This is a good summary of report and the bottom line is if Brazilian ATC did their job there would have not been an accident. Clearly Embraer could do better job to prevent inadvertent turning off of transponder and better warning system if it was but this was not the cause of the accident!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gol_Transportes_A%C3%A9reos_Flight_1907

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